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Post by kayo on Mar 23, 2016 13:14:01 GMT -5
About a year ago I wrote a short note - not really a complaint, more of a wish-list - to NYC councilwoman Melissa Mark-Viverito. I won't post the entire note here, but basically I said what a shame it was that with all the money being spent on school transportation, lunches, and all the other things meant to help struggling low-income families and their kids, why do schools still make kids pay for tampons and pads. I got a "form" reply thanking me, and saying that if Mark-Viverito wanted to contact me further she would. Well, she didn't. Then, on the news, I saw this. gothamist.com/2016/03/14/free_tampons_nyc_schools.phpCool. Now if I can get someone to listen in my OWN neighborhood... just thinking ahead. Susu is on my mind. So fast. Too fast.
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Post by bluejay67 on Mar 24, 2016 16:28:36 GMT -5
I am fortunate enough to use a hospital in the Veteran's Administration. Best care anyone could ask for. In a lavatory on the main floor next to the main entrance there is a machine that dispenses free tampons and napkins. Seems someone is looking out for Lady Vets that need period supply help.
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Post by Crossdresser on Mar 25, 2016 23:40:30 GMT -5
I think this discussion has been going on since the very beginning over at Bianca's. The New York Daily News also ran a story about this 25 school pilot program: www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-schools-offer-free-feminine-hygiene-products-article-1.2563277Google Images linked this story to one about the first machine at The High School for Arts and Business: www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150922/corona/corona-high-school-offers-free-feminine-hygiene-products-pilot-programIt turns out the huge HOSPECO hospital supply house sponsored that Corona trial, not the city. For the 25 school pilot, the city put up $130,000. What I am curious about is if history will repeat itself, or if times have changed. HOSPECO is probably the biggest distributor of tampon/pad vending machines. They have always been "dumb" machines. And, they were always being broke into for the change inside; not just in NYC but nationwide. The machine shown in the photographs can be bought on Amazon. I urge you to read the reviews in the following listing for this machine, which were posted during the height of the crank review period on Amazon and are hysterical: www.amazon.com/Hospeco-Sanitary-Dispenser-Operated-Mechanism/dp/B004MDM4T6In the past, a few people would steal all the supplies from these machines if they were set up to dispense for free. We even had guys post here about how they stole supplies from airliner rest rooms. For the NYC case: I don't know how custodial care works in NYC schools now, but years ago they had some byzantine system where they paid custodians a fixed amount to maintain the schools. Offering free tampons then was out of the question. I think these machines can work if they put something like a Metrocard reader in them. Give students, umm, girls (had to rewrite that because you don't want to pay for the dumpster diving guys with a menstrual fetish) a pre-loaded card at the beginning of the school year. Lost cards can be replaced after reading how many tampons were used up to that point in the school year. But after 12,000 tampons or so taken by an individual, I think it is fair to cut that person off. I think the reason these free SANPRO programs never took off before, apart from indifference shown to females, is that the wholesale theft problem was not solved. There is now a plethora of solutions for operators of rest rooms to prevent theft of toilet paper. Locking toilet paper holders. Those huge rolls that prevent TP outages are also not suited for use in a residence. HOSPECO should market a "smart" dispenser. I don't think HOSPECO ever made those machines themselves; they probably got some contract manufacturer to do that. Maybe one of the high tech manufacturers in Kayo's neck of the woods will sponsor a free trial.
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Post by padtastic on Mar 28, 2016 16:10:46 GMT -5
So apparently the board now automatically sends an e–mail when there are "new replies to threads..." I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that or if it's a setting that Kayo flipped on that individual users can flip back off, but if nothing else it let me know about Crossdresser's reply to this thread. (Any insight on the change would be appreciated though.)
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that Crossdresser has hit the nail on the head with the issue of wholesale theft. The "free pad/tampon problem" is that it's effectively a paradox without a good workaround. Put "dumb" HOSPECO–style machines in the restrooms, and people can and will take as many pads and/or tampons as they can shove into something on their person, whether it's a purse, backpack, coat, etc. Give them away for free to help low–income families, and the machines will be empty before they ever have the chance to do any good. People who don't need the help will take as many "free" pads/tampons as they can just because they're "free," and said people are too cheap to buy a package from the store. (I'm not even referring to the "rich assholes who want to spite the poor" category of people who would do this out of pure malice, but to the people who are well enough off to afford pads/tampons, but who are just too cheap to buy them when they can grab them for free.) Likewise, there will always be at least a few people who are technically in the low–income bracket that the machines are intended for, but who will exploit their existence by not just taking a pad/tampon for themselves, but who will also empty out the machines to take as many pads/tampons as possible for themselves and their other female family members and/or friends. (Think of these people as the group that's not just low–income, but also low–rent.)
All right, let's say that instead of "free" you offer the pads/tampons for a very small fee, say five cents, which even low–income families should be able to afford. Even at five cents, people will still break into the machines and just steal their contents to get "free" pads/tampons. (As Crossdresser has already pointed out, there are also people who will break into the machines just to steal the change in them, even if it's not enough to buy anything more than a bag of Doritos from another vending machine.) Likewise, even at five cents, you'll still get people who will just bring a stack of nickels with them and take as many pads/tampons as they can buy from the vending machine. (Technically they haven't done anything wrong, and they are paying for their purchase, so it's not like you can really do anything about them the way that you could about the people who would just steal the pads/tampons instead.) If you think five cents is too low, you could raise the price to 25 cents, but that's not really helping low–income families, since a package of pads typically costs about $4-7 dollars for a package of 18 pads. (At 25 cents a piece, you'd still be paying $4.50 for 18 pads, which might get the cheapskates to go to a store, but wouldn't do much to offset the cost for the low–income families that the machines are designed for.)
The bigger issue though is that with "dumb" machines, people can and will break into and just steal from them. Wal–Mart usually has baby diaper dispensers that make use of the same type of "dumb" machines, and people can and do break into them and take their contents. (While I'd love to say that this is just because it's Wal–Mart, the truth is that it happens everywhere, not just at Wal–Mart.) I once spoke to a janitor who worked at one such store and admitted he occasionally took a pad/tampon/diaper from the machines knowing full well that nobody would notice and that it was so idiotically easy for anyone to do that it was simply laughable. I'll be clear that I don't condone stealing, but for those of you wondering how he broke into the machines simply out of curiosity, I'll just tell you that he used a key sold with a cheap safe/deposit box that you could buy at the exact same Wal–Mart, and that was just because it was the easiest way to get his ill–gotten gains. While obviously not everyone would be as unscrupulous as this, there are enough people who are that "dumb" machines are always going to be exploited.
Now you might be wondering, "why not just install "smart" machines," and the answer to that is that it would effectively defeat the point of offering free/extremely reduced price pads/tampons to low–income families. A "smart" machine will cost a lot more than a "dumb" machine by virtue of having anti–theft measures built into it, along with a decent side of electronic components. Instead of a simple inexpensive mechanical system, there are now electronics that'll wear out and require the machine to undergo somewhat regular maintenance. The cost of installing the machines now increases to the point where it's likely going to be prohibitive again, and even if it's not, the maintenance will be, so half the time the machines will sit around non–functional, being just as useful as "dumb" machines that sit around empty. Develop a card–based system for students in this specific scenario, and you send the price even further through the roof since the school now needs to pay for cards to issue to students, vending machines that can read the cards, a way for the school to ensure that lost/stolen cards can be replaced and/or aren't exploited, the ability to check the balance on cards to ensure that they're not being abused, and the ability to issue replacements or cut off cards that are being abused. By this point it's a whole lot cheaper just to issue low–income female students a voucher that can be used at any local store to purchase one free package of pads or tampons a month, and to have them do so on their own time. (Of course, that assumes that the voucher or items purchased with it aren't also stolen, exploited, or otherwise used in a way that sends the cost of such a program through the roof.)
While the idea of free/inexpensive pads/tampons for low–income students is wonderful, actually implementing such a program that isn't readily exploited is a lot more difficult than it might initially seem. There are unfortunately just too many people who will exploit such a system unless you develop one that's either cost–prohibitive for the people it's meant for, or more of a hassle than simply going to the nurse's office. I won't even go after the guys with a menstrual fetish who might grab a pad or two from an airplane, because those are budgeted into the cost of the flight, (as is everything on a flying bus designed to nickel and dime every passenger,) and nobody is going to notice one or two additional missing pads. (If someone cleans out the entire compartment with them, that's obviously an entirely different story.) Likewise, the occasional pervy male student who sneaks into the girls' bathroom to grab a pad/tampon is unlikely to be the kind of person whose going to stick around for the scenery, or to grab more than one or two pads at once. (Remember, this is someone who wants to get in and out quickly without being seen, and who subsequently is unlikely to want to draw attention to himself by trying to empty out the entire vending machine.) I was once at a college that had a condom dispenser in the men's room. At some point the bathrooms were "remodeled," and the men's and women's rooms were "flipped" for reasons that'll never make any sense to me. (Granted it was fun to watch muscle memory force both men and women to scream "AHH!" at each other for two weeks until everyone figured out where the "correct" bathroom was, even if I'm convinced people wanted to rip the signs off the doors and just stop giving a shit after the first three days of this.) The bathrooms were the same size, and there was no reason to flip them other than some architect being bored or just wanting to force people to have the exact reaction that they did from having to break with muscle memory. The one thing that did not make it into the new men's room though was the condom dispenser, which stayed in the ladies room. (My girlfriend once asked why it was in the ladies room instead of the men's room when we had to use it, and I mentioned that the ladies room used to be the men's room and vice–versa, at which point the placement of the condom dispenser made a lot of sense.) I'm partially convinced that the reason the condom dispenser was kept in the ladies room was that even with a small fee associated with it, guys would probably exploit the machine for its contents in the same way that some women would exploit a pad/tampon vending machine. By sticking the condom dispenser in the ladies room, the likelihood that someone would break into it and take 20 condoms at a time was greatly reduced since most women probably aren't going to take excess condoms, (and women with a condom fetish are as likely to be an issue as men with a menstrual fetish,) even if they buy two to use immediately with a partner in case one breaks/is defective. While this probably cut back on any "condom theft" if it even existed to begin with, doing something similar for pads/tampons would go over like a lead balloon. I doubt many young women want to ask their guy friends to go into the men's room to buy them a pad/tampon from the dispenser, even in a country that has taken massive leaps and bounds forward in recent years about not hiding the existence of menstruation. While it would probably solve a decent quantity of the issues relate to theft, (even if menstrual fetishists were in the mix and occasionally bought or even stole pads/tampons,) it would almost definitely be considered "too degrading" or ridiculous to even be considered as a realistic option, (even if you also put condom machines in the ladies rooms to balance things out,) even if having your guy friend grab a pad/tampon for you in high school would be slightly more convenient than going to the nurse's office. For now though, free pads/tampons available through the nurse might still be the best option for low–income families. (Dole them out to low–income female students on a set schedule bypass the issues of vending machines entirely.)
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Post by kayo on Mar 28, 2016 17:49:28 GMT -5
I don't think it's that hard to solve the 'theft' issue. Simply have a sign-up sheet at the school nurse's office for any girl who wants free tampons. Leave the coin machines in the bathroom for everyone else. If you're on the nurse's list, you can get up to 20 a month from the nurse. No one has to know.
If the school wants to go "high tech" they can install a regular floor-standing full-size vending machine, not the "dumb" ones, that operate on a debit card (but don't actually charge the card) or a free app on your phone. And it can still take money. And while we're at it, the machine can also sell emergency panties. Good enough to get you through the day and maybe one or two washes.
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Post by Crossdresser on Apr 2, 2016 2:58:28 GMT -5
Actually, I think Kayo's suggestion to install a floor-standing, full size machine is the best I've ever heard and one I didn't think of myself. The advantage of these machines is that they are already battle tested against all types of exploits. I haven't lost money in any of these machines in years.
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Post by padtastic on Apr 4, 2016 21:06:30 GMT -5
I don't think it's that hard to solve the 'theft' issue. Simply have a sign-up sheet at the school nurse's office for any girl who wants free tampons. Leave the coin machines in the bathroom for everyone else. If you're on the nurse's list, you can get up to 20 a month from the nurse. No one has to know. If the school wants to go "high tech" they can install a regular floor-standing full-size vending machine, not the "dumb" ones, that operate on a debit card (but don't actually charge the card) or a free app on your phone. And it can still take money. And while we're at it, the machine can also sell emergency panties. Good enough to get you through the day and maybe one or two washes. Ah, I thought you were trying to eliminate the need to get supplies from the nurse's office Kayo, if that's not the case though your idea works perfectly and is exactly what I would do. It's actually what was done around here when I was younger, and because I had to make use of the school nurse's office for my own issues at the time, I knew more than a few people who were there for other reasons, some of which weren't exactly hidden. (Of course, the giant box of pads at the top of the closet that stuck out like a sore thumb where everyone could see it kind of kills the "no one has to know" angle, but then again, if anyone has a problem with that they can, well I'll let you insert your own tampon string of expletives here.) I see no reason why this shouldn't be able to be implemented as you suggest. As for the floor-standing vending machines, the reason I didn't suggest those Crossdresser is that they ones that are designed with multiple anti-theft measures typically cost significantly more to install and maintain than the "dumb" machines that any idiot can brake into. I do like the idea of such a machine if the goal is just to sell products though, but I'd expect that you'd be paying a pretty decent mark-up for the privilege of using the machine, and that it still wouldn't work as well as Kayo's first idea of just using the school nurse for low-income students and machines for everyone else. (And if people empty the "dumb" machines out, that's on them for screwing things up for anyone in a bind who isn't too poor to afford their own pads or tampons.) I do like the idea of a machine that sells emergency panties too though for a floor-standing design, although the real problem would be where to actually put the machine. Most school buildings are old and lack both the wiring and the space inside of the bathroom to connect such a machine. Theoretically you could put it in a hallway like any other vending machine, but I'm not sure how people would feel about having to carry the pad/tampon (or panties) from the machine into the bathroom. (Would we care if "apsiring pervs" had access to such a machine in the hallway if they still had to put money into it? I probably wouldn't care about that, but I could see some snotty brat giving another female student flak for having to get her pads/tampons out of the vending machine, and that's not even getting into the meathead male students who would do the same thing. Granted, schools seem to be tougher on that kind of thing now than they were even five or ten years ago, so it might not be an issue.) If the hall works and we don't have a problem with a machine actually taking money, Kayo's idea for a standing machine would work just fine, but if it has to be in the bathroom or needs to provide "free" products, there are going to be problems, especially in older buildings. Now combining a pay machine with the free supplies from the nurses as Kayo suggests is actually what I would probably do, and if people have too much of an issue with having to go to the nurse for "free" supplies, that should be on them. Actually, since sticking the machine in a bathroom would be difficult in a lot of schools, let's take the idea a step further if it's going to sell products. Put it between the two restrooms and don't just fill it with pads tampons and possibly panties. In schools where you can get condoms from the nurses office, put them in the machine as well, along with other items to prevent teen pregnancy. While this wouldn't work in areas where sex ed classes can't even mention contraceptives, it would work in areas where schools realized that if they started providing condoms to students who were going to make out anyway, they'd reduce the number of STI's and teen pregnancies that they had to deal with. (Spoiler alert: this worked.) By putting condoms in the vending machine along with other supplies, it won't be stigmatized as "the period machine," you'll get male and female students to use the thing, and you might be able to turn a small profit for the school by having the machine installed as well, I would be all for this idea.
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Post by kayo on Apr 11, 2016 11:28:50 GMT -5
I guess what I was suggesting was a way to "equalize" access to sanipro. So if a girl wanted to go to the nurse's office for supplies, fine. Swipe her ID, she's entitled to ___ per month. (This has to be a budget issue, I guess). If she wants to use the vending machine, she swipes her ID and either gets them for free or at a discount, but again, limited to ___ per month. No ID, or not on "the list", you pay full price. It's not hard to set up vending machines this way.
I don't think there will be a rush to empty the machine. Can there really be much of a secondary market for tampons, after all? You can get them anywhere, maybe cheaper than the school would have to charge. And if a girl is really from a low-income family, and buying tampons or pads is a struggle for her (for whatever reason) I think most schools could afford to break even or maybe take a small loss on this, in the name of equalizing the problem. The nurse's office and a vending machine are just a couple more ways to access a necessary health item. I just don't think it's that big an issue, honestly.
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